[ This was linked, and I didn't realize it, from a nanog-futures thread that I *also* hadn't noticed until just now (1-Feb-07). I've restored it for hysterical raisins. :-) It was my Goodbye, Cruel List posting to NANOG. I don't do those very often; I don't need to. I was rather proud of it, though, and since people do seem to come looking for it on a much more regular basis than I would have thought... --jra ] Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 21:16:12 -0400 From: "Jay R. Ashworth" To: jra@cgi.jachomes.com Subject: The Great NANOG Meltdown of 2005 Ok, perhaps that's overly melodramatic. :-) But here, in sequential order, are all the messages involved in my being banned from nanog-post, in chronological order, with snarky, one-sided commentary. Sigs and most headers are clipped for space; I have them all on file if anyone really cares. The original message. Remember what the news was telling you about downtown New Orleans on Thursday night...? ======================== Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 13:52:16 -0400 From: "Jay R. Ashworth" To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: OT: Attn Federal NS/EP types If there's anyone in black sunglasses reading this positioned sufficiently high to do any good, please go read http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/39438.html?mode=reply (Please do not reply on list to this posting. Anyone who feels the need to yell at me, please do it off-list.) Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com Designer Baylink RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates The Things I Think '87 e24 St Petersburg FL USA http://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 647 1274 "NPR has a lot in common with Nascar... we both turn to the left." - Peter Sagal, on Wait Wait, Don't Tell Me! ======================== That's it. It garnered, as requested, *no* on-list replies at all, and only a couple people, off list, asking me what I thought black eyeshades types could accomplish. I clarified that I was looking for such folks who were on the staffs of people with stars on their shoulders, and they said, approximately, "Oh." ----- Forwarded message ----- Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 13:12:01 -0500 From: I'm actually kind of curious what part of that you wanted to point out to the black sunglasses folks, there are so many things... ----- End forwarded message ----- ----- Forwarded message ----- From: Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 14:27:26 -0400 I am almost speachless. It is unfathomable that a major US city is being evacuated and may not be habitable for months. I've personally been through a number of bad situations but bever seen an aftermath like this where the people themselves become a significant threat. Best, ----- End forwarded message ----- And there was nothing more, until the next evening: Rob Seastrom is, I gather, one of the NANOG moderators this semester. His first message was off-list, which was nice of him. ----- Forwarded message from "Robert E. Seastrom" ----- Subject: Re: OT: Attn Federal NS/EP types From: Robert E.Seastrom Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 17:50:45 -0400 "Jay R. Ashworth" writes: > If there's anyone in black sunglasses reading this positioned > sufficiently high to do any good, please go read My sunglasses are black, and my eyes are bleeding from all the off-topic posting on nanog@. If you can spare a moment of restraint... do it for the children... for God, Motherhood, and Apple Pie... ;-) ---Rob ----- End forwarded message ----- Even a smilie. :-) Later that night, a little tidbet setting the scene: ----- Forwarded message from Irwin Lazar ----- Subject: RE: Tidbit from DirectNIC Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 18:54:05 -0600 From: "Irwin Lazar" To: "Michael Greb" , Per http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1475927/posts the firefighters are taking sniper fire and have barracaded themselves inside the building. ----- End forwarded message ----- Free Republic isn't the most neutral source, but the reports were later confirmed, of course. I replied to Rob's message, and he replied as follows: ----- Forwarded message from "Robert E. Seastrom" ----- To: "Jay R. Ashworth" Cc: rs@seastrom.com, nanog-admin@merit.edu Subject: Re: OT: Attn Federal NS/EP types From: Robert E.Seastrom Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 16:25:09 -0400 "Jay R. Ashworth" writes: > On Fri, Sep 02, 2005 at 05:50:45PM -0400, Robert E. Seastrom wrote: >> "Jay R. Ashworth" writes: >> > If there's anyone in black sunglasses reading this positioned >> > sufficiently high to do any good, please go read >> >> My sunglasses are black, and my eyes are bleeding from all the >> off-topic posting on nanog@. >> >> If you can spare a moment of restraint... do it for the children... >> for God, Motherhood, and Apple Pie... ;-) > > You're just *now* getting to this? :-) More important things to do than sit around constantly polling my spool file for new mail so I can be the first to reply... > As it happens, the Marines showed up an hour later. > > And I *did* say don't reply on-list ... and amazingly, everyone > complied. You're the only one to even complain. :-) The fact that you successfully got everyone to reply off-list and I'm the only one to have complained doesn't make the original post appropriate, it just means that the people who usually complain about such things had more important stuff to do too. I urge restraint in posting. Best, ---Rob ----- End forwarded message ----- Yes, Rob; it was clear what you were trying to do. It would have been nice to just skip ahead, at this stage to "clearly, we disagree on whether the situation is dire enough to justify breaking *this* list's rules." But perhaps I needed to make it explicit. Note that he's carboned in the admin list now. Rob's next reply: ----- Forwarded message from "Robert E. Seastrom" ----- To: "Jay R. Ashworth" Cc: nanog-admin@merit.edu Subject: Re: OT: Attn Federal NS/EP types From: Robert E.Seastrom Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 18:44:03 -0400 "Jay R. Ashworth" writes: > On Sat, Sep 03, 2005 at 04:25:09PM -0400, Robert E. Seastrom wrote: >> > As it happens, the Marines showed up an hour later. >> > >> > And I *did* say don't reply on-list ... and amazingly, everyone >> > complied. You're the only one to even complain. :-) >> >> The fact that you successfully got everyone to reply off-list and I'm >> the only one to have complained doesn't make the original post >> appropriate, it just means that the people who usually complain about >> such things had more important stuff to do too. >> >> I urge restraint in posting. > > Natural disasters and urban rioting trump mailing list rules. If that > judgement call doesn't suit you, you know what to do. It was on topic > anyway: it pertained directly to the continuation of Internet > operations. I'm sorry to hear that you don't think the list AUP applies to you. ---Rob ----- End forwarded message ----- And this is what set me off. I'd made it clear that a) it didn't really violate the list rules at all (it *was* about keeping specific network elements running, and in an emergency situation at that), and b) to the extent that maybe it bent the rules a touch, I felt that it was justified. I base that judgement on over 20 years of exerience on the net, Usenet, and mailing lists, for whatever that's worth. Yeah, it's Appeal to Authority, even if the authority's me, but what the hell; it's worth a try. But Rob wanted to turn it into a pissing contest. Fine with me. You can see my reply to that in a minute, but first, an attempt to calm things down from Steve Gibbard, the person usually designated to spank me when I (admittedly) occasionally stretch NANOG's rules: ----- Forwarded message from Steve Gibbard ----- Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 18:54:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Steve Gibbard To: "Jay R. Ashworth" cc: "Robert E. Seastrom" , nanog-admin@merit.edu Subject: Re: [nanog-admin] Re: OT: Attn Federal NS/EP types On Sat, 3 Sep 2005, Jay R. Ashworth wrote: > Natural disasters and urban rioting trump mailing list rules. If that > judgment call doesn't suit you, you know what to do. It was on topic Jay, we've got two recourses here. We can ask people to stay on topic, or we can take away their posting privileges. We've only gotten to the point of removing somebody's posting privileges once. We try to avoid it. So far, you've been reasonably good about not posting off topic stuff when reminded, but you've needed a lot of reminders, to the point where you probably take up as much list administration time as the other 10,000 list members combined. If you'd prefer that we just prevent you from posting, that would be a lot easier. -Steve -- Steve Gibbard Steve Gibbard Consulting -- IP network consulting services Office: +1 510 528-1263 Cell: +1 415 717-7842 http://www.stevegibbard.com/ ----- End forwarded message ----- We note that Steve *also* ignores my assertion that it was not actually all that off topic, notwithstanding my subject tag, and Steve clarifies that the major issue that has gotten me cut off here is really not this one post, it's the last 6 months. Ok... but isn't the straw that breaks the camel's back supposed to be one you actually *put* there? Ok, now: back to my reply to Steve. I carboned it to the admin list as well, because I really wasn't all that concerned about the opinions of anyone who read it, at that stage of the game. I wasn't supposed to *read* Susan's gleeful reaction (I don't think Susan's ever liked me all that well for the last 8 or 9 years either...), but someone wasn't careful with their headers. ----- Forwarded message from Susan Harris ----- Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 08:51:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Harris To: "Jay R. Ashworth" cc: "Robert E. Seastrom" , nanog-admin@merit.edu Subject: Re: [nanog-admin] Re: OT: Attn Federal NS/EP types Oh boy. I think for this we can zap him. Probably it should be me or Sue who does this so Merit gets the flak, if any. Let's wait till tomorrow so you folks can agree/disagree. (I'm not planning on doing mail again till tomorrow.) On Sat, 3 Sep 2005, Jay R. Ashworth wrote: > On Sat, Sep 03, 2005 at 06:44:03PM -0400, Robert E. Seastrom wrote: >>> Natural disasters and urban rioting trump mailing list rules. If that >>> judgement call doesn't suit you, you know what to do. It was on topic >>> anyway: it pertained directly to the continuation of Internet >>> operations. >> >> I'm sorry to hear that you don't think the list AUP applies to you. > > I'm sorry to hear that you aren't a human being. > > Cheers, > -- jra > -- > Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com > Designer Baylink RFC 2100 > Ashworth & Associates The Things I Think '87 e24 > St Petersburg FL USA http://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 647 1274 > > "NPR has a lot in common with Nascar... we both turn to the left." > - Peter Sagal, on Wait Wait, Don't Tell Me! > > !DSPAM:431a3b3f17676215918201! > > ----- End forwarded message ----- I left that message in in it's entirety mostly to pass a pissy comment about Susan's choice of mail program... but on further inspection, I guess it's not Outhouse Express after all. Never mind. :-) And she was kind enough (or ballsy enough, depending on how you look at this) to apologize: ----- Forwarded message from Susan Harris ----- Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 09:03:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Harris To: "Jay R. Ashworth" cc: nanog-admin@merit.edu Subject: Re: [nanog-admin] Re: OT: Attn Federal NS/EP types My apologies, Jay. Needless to say, I copied you by mistake. On Mon, 5 Sep 2005, Susan Harris wrote: > Oh boy. I think for this we can zap him. Probably it should be me or Sue > who does this so Merit gets the flak, if any. Let's wait till tomorrow so > you folks can agree/disagree. (I'm not planning on doing mail again till > tomorrow.) > > On Sat, 3 Sep 2005, Jay R. Ashworth wrote: > >> On Sat, Sep 03, 2005 at 06:44:03PM -0400, Robert E. Seastrom wrote: >>>> Natural disasters and urban rioting trump mailing list rules. If that >>>> judgement call doesn't suit you, you know what to do. It was on topic >>>> anyway: it pertained directly to the continuation of Internet >>>> operations. >>> >>> I'm sorry to hear that you don't think the list AUP applies to you. >> >> I'm sorry to hear that you aren't a human being. >> >> Cheers, >> -- jra >> -- >> Jay R. Ashworth >> jra@baylink.com >> Designer Baylink RFC >> 2100 >> Ashworth & Associates The Things I Think '87 >> e24 >> St Petersburg FL USA http://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 647 >> 1274 >> >> "NPR has a lot in common with Nascar... we both turn to the left." >> - Peter Sagal, on Wait Wait, Don't Tell Me! >> >> !DSPAM:431a3b3f17676215918201! >> >> > ----- End forwarded message ----- Christopher Malayter put in his own opinion, which was phrased reasonably politely, and in which he did not have his official list mod hat on, so I'm leaving it out. To make clear precisely what I felt was the issue at hand, I originated a posting to the admin list setting forth precisely what was being discussed, in my humble opinion: -----Original Message----- From: Jay R. Ashworth [mailto:jra@baylink.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 2:18 PM To: nanog-admin@merit.edu Subject: [nanog-admin] The "NS/EP" post I just want to reiterate this, because it's heartfelt. If y'all are going to raise this much stink over one single posting, with no replies, which, in addition to attempting to maintain network services (DirectNIC, in New Orleans, were the direct beneficiaries), was intended to attempt to help maintain civic order in an entire, mostly demolished, American city, then you are none of you human beings, and I don't want to be involved with any of you. That does not constitute the reasonable exercise of judgement, in my opinion, whatever previous history the message's poster might have. Cheers, -- jra ----- End forwarded message ----- And then, because it's traditional to send a "see what you've done" posting to a mailing list you're about to be kicked off of, if you get the chance (:-), I did: ----- Forwarded message from "Jay R. Ashworth" ----- Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 15:24:48 -0400 From: "Jay R. Ashworth" To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Buh bye I'm about to be removed, forcibly, from nanog-post. Mostly, it's because I feel that the degree of stink raised by the admin team over my "send in the marines" post last week is completely out of the bounds of reason for a single, only arguably off-topic, posting which asked for, and received, no on-list replies. And, clearly, they *don't* think it's unreasonable. That's ok; I only operate very small networks, and no one's going to lose any sleep over not hearing what I have to say. And since, notwithstanding everyone's interest in *reading* best practices information on networking, none of the people who *have* it had anything to write about it on the Wikicty below (with a couple of notable exceptions), I'm probably taking that off in another direction as well. I wrote this mostly because it's a tradition. :-) Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com Designer +-Internetworking------+----------+ RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates | Best Practices Wiki | | '87 e24 St Petersburg FL USA http://bestpractices.wikicities.com +1 727 647 1274 If you can read this... thank a system administrator. Or two. --me ----- End forwarded message ----- [ Note that Wikicities is now Wikia and that address is http://bestpractices.wikia.com They're still ignoring it. ] And here falleth the axe: ----- Forwarded message from "Malayter, Christopher" ----- From: "Malayter, Christopher" To: "'Jay R. Ashworth'" Cc: nanog-admin@merit.edu Subject: Suspension of posting privileges Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 14:27:08 -0500 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Jay, I regret to inform you that the Nanog Mailing List Administration Team has decided to suspend your posting privileges to the nanog mailing list for a period of three months. You have received repeated warnings pertaining to AUP violations in the following areas: 1) Discussion will focus on Internet operational and technical issues as described in the charter of NANOG 4) Postings that include foul language, character assassination, and lack of respect for other participants are prohibited The AUP can be found at: http://www.nanog.org/aup.html Regards, Chris Malayter TDS Telecom - Network Services Data Network Engineering chris.malayter@tdstelecom.com Phone: (608) 664-4878 FAX: (608) 664-4644 ----- End forwarded message ----- As I noted to the admin list in my reply, that's two lies for the price of one: 1) The target was the maintenance, among other things, of the only working Internet connection in downtown New Orleans. 4) None of my postings on the list contained anything like that. My message to Rob, on and off the admin list, said what you've seen them say, but the only thing even in there would be "lack of respect"... and that was certainly purposeful. After that, I got a half dozen nice "we'll miss you" and "what in hell are they on about?" notes, the most pertinent of which I excerpt here: ----- Forwarded message ----- Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 16:03:06 -0400 To: "Jay R. Ashworth" Subject: Re: Buh bye X-Mailer: Outlook stinks. Dump Outlook. Jay R. Ashworth wrote (on Tue, Sep 06, 2005 at 03:24:48PM -0400): > I'm about to be removed, forcibly, from nanog-post. > > Mostly, it's because I feel that the degree of stink raised by > the admin team over my "send in the marines" post last week is > completely out of the bounds of reason for a single, only > arguably off-topic, posting which asked for, and received, no > on-list replies. > > And, clearly, they *don't* think it's unreasonable. How sad. I just went to the archives to look around; you have a very high S/N ratio, Jay. And there's dozens of other posts here which have nothing to do with the NANOG charter. Sad. ----- End forwarded message ----- And so, there is the whole sordid story. I continue to forget: "The world *bitterly* resents attempts to help it." The smaller the pond, the higher the frogs feel they have to hop, I guess. Everyone will make their own decisions anyway, so I won't invite you to. :-) [ and here, 4 years later, I find I don't miss it all that much ] Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com Designer Baylink RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates The Things I Think '87 e24 St Petersburg FL USA http://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 647 1274 Bootleg Tonic, Volume 1: Some of the best blues rock of the Naughties. http://tr.im/btonic